Pancha tattvas

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Pydipala Pydipala
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Pancha tattvas

I have been through alot of info about pancha tattvas (dakshinacara, vamacara) recently.....Why do they say that sadhana without pancha tattvas is evil magic? What does it mean by evil here? Can a shakti (as in shaktism) should not be worshipped without those? What path  does this pancha tattva sadhana lead to (liberation or stuck in life death cycle)?

I would really appreciate any insights on this. Thank you
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

If you are referring to pañcatattva-s containing five M-s, as prescribed in Tantra-s, they are are referred in Kulārṇava Tantra. These are meant for cittaśodana sādhana (purification of consciousness and mind), process of purification. These five M-s are often interpreted on the grosser side. The five M-s are wine, meat, fish, fried grains (mudrā; mudrā here does not mean finger gestures, but fried grains) and copulation.

The correct interpretation of these five are as follows. Wine  means Śakti, Divine Dynamism. Meat means Shiva, the Divine Substance. Though there is no subtle interpretation for fish, grain is the offering made out of grains and copulation means the union of Shiva and Shakti leading to the state of Bliss.

It is not necessary for us to pursue this path explained from the grosser angle. This can be explained in greater detail as well. But the principle remains the same.

RAVI
avijit avijit
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Re: Pancha tattvas

In reply to this post by Pydipala
Very good topic really. if you are refering to m karas then this is a way. i have experienced vamachara and kaulachara very closely. one clan use tirthanatha title in bengal who are kaulas. this is a very large group mainly started from a renouned scholar Jaganmohan tarkalankar whose dikshaname Purnananda tirthanatha. now his fifth generation is running and very close to me. they actively use sthula pancha m karas...madhya mamsa matsya mudra maithuna. literally speaking in original form but i ssaw the way they deal have positive effect. definitely now after four generation some bad people came and joined but original line really know shastra and really self realized. i can't express property but has to be feel with their company. they are not at all drunkers and attached to other basic instinct but wisely use only for Puja of kalika. but if anybody don't want to go by this way this is also not wrong.
i have experienced with vamacharis in tarapeeth. there morning bath of maa ugratara start with raw wine. no use of water in any proper Puja only wine. five types of fishes offered daily. with at least ten goat sacrifice every day. all homas done in attached cremation ground and no Puja start until one body comes to cremation ground . there also some realized person are there also with some very bad people.
so pancha m karas are not always bad practically wise use of snake venom can save life and 100% oxygen is toxic.
so guru should determine way for sishya.
always starting from Pashyachara but then veerachara or directly divyachara should be determined by guru according to power and karma of sishya.
Pydipala Pydipala
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Thank you so much for the information. But I heard somewhere that a pooja without any naivedya or prasad it gives worldly benefits. so my question is What is the difference between "a sadhana where you can meditate and perform pooja internally" and "doing a pooja without pancha tattvas for worldly benefits"?

I am trying to understand the deeper concepts behind this ritual. Please help me in my questions.

Thank you
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

What Avijit said is absolutely true. In every path there are good people and bad people. However, I will come out with a detailed article on this subject based on Tantra Shastras. Thank you for posting this question here.
RAVI
Pydipala Pydipala
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Hello Raviji,

Thank you in advance for the article you are going to write based on my question.Hope the questions I asked previously will be answered in your article. I will be eagerly waiting to read it.
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Yes, surely I will try to address all your queries in that article. In fact, I was contemplating to write on this subject sometime back. I will do this in a week's time. Thank you.
RAVI
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

In reply to this post by Pydipala
I have just posted an article titled "Panchatattva and Tantric intiation and here is the link for this article.

 http://www.manblunder.com/2013/07/panchatattva-and-tantric-initiation.html

If you want to add further comments, please do so in the article (blog post) itself, so that we can look for some healthy discussions.
RAVI
avijit avijit
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Thanks for nice article .
in rudrayamala prana vayu playing in ida pingala susumna nadi is refered as fish also . in case of mudra fried grains are generally offered . i saw fruits and rice and  chapati also aas mudra offering. when chakra anusthanam occurs on occasion of new purnabhisekam for new sadhakas generally five patra svikara happen. then first mamsa then matsya then mudra comes. in mudra grains fruits and lastly some sweets also comes with last patra. so here four m s covered. then kaulas show hand mudras and then merge into japa and view siva shakti maithuna in sahastrara. nowadays gross maithuna even between sadhaka couple also not done in bhairavi chakra also. in kali yuga no person is fit enough to practice perfect sthula and sukshma pancha m kara sadhana.
Pydipala Pydipala
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Re: Pancha tattvas

In reply to this post by RAVI
Hello Raviji,

Thank you for the nice article you have very well elaborated on the pancha tattvas. But I want to know if the pancha tattvas are to be used in the same order? What will the results be if they are reversed or if we use for example only a few of them? What will be the consequences? If you could please shed some more light on this it will be very greatful.

Thank you
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

To my knowledge, there is no explanation for this. But, this can be interpreted in two ways. Pañcatattva means five principle elements according to dakṣinācāra. This principle of dakṣinācāra relies on Taittirīya Upaniṣad which says that Brahman created ākāśa, air, fire, water and finally earth. These five elements are worshiped through Pañcapūjā while performing japa. If one is left out in dakṣinācāra, the process of creation becomes incomplete or no creation happens. Hence as per Vedic terms, none of these can be left out.

The same principle applies to vāmācāra, but the only difference is substitution. Five M-s as originally described in Tantra śāstra-s cannot be followed in strict terms in today's world as this is subject to misuse and people are cheated by self-proclaimed gurus. Particularly, one should not fall victim to maithuna. Instead of indulging in these activities, focusing our thoughts on Her will yield far superior results.

The order cannot be reversed as this is based on the process of creation explained in Taittirīya Upaniṣad. Suppose we way that from Brahman originated ākāśa and then earth instead of air, the process of creation will become chaotic. Secondly, we should not change the fundamental principles of worship. What will be result is a difficult question to answer. When Scriptures do not say so, better do not experiment with available alternatives.

Ultimately, it is our mind that determines everything. For example a Yogi will not take these things seriously, as he is busy in staying connected with Her perpetually. When everything is done to attain Her Grace and when She showers Her Grace on us, there is no need for any practice. We have to perpetually remain with Her. When we transforms ourselves as Her, who is going to worship whom?



RAVI
yogi yogi
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Re: Pancha tattvas

I read in the Devi-rahasya, maithuna that - it is a form of internal havan, where we as purnAhuti, offer seed, with the mantra:

Dharmadharma-havirdipte atmagnau manasa sruca

Sushumnavartmana nityam akshavrittir juhomyaham

Svaha.

To the fire of sushumna and consciousness of the Atman. However, I have not found anywhere information than the practice differs from normal purashcharana (japa,homa, tarpana...). How we can by 5 M, realize the mantra siddhi.
RAVI RAVI
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Explanatory notes for this verse is available in the book Śakti and Śākta of Sir John Woodroffe  Arthur Avalon. A link to the relevant page is here.

http://www.wattpad.com/97268-shakti-and-sh%C3%A2kta?p=244#.UgPZ9pI3CHM

Please check whether this article is of any help to you.

http://www.manblunder.com/2013/07/panchatattva-and-tantric-initiation.html
RAVI
AUM.Ravi AUM.Ravi
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Re: Pancha tattvas

This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by RAVI
This is regarding using of pancha makaras. Actually, these makarasa will be used combine in puja. How? Out of these pancha makaras, four makarasa will be used in patra saadhana.
Kaula = madyam, Dakshina = cow milk, for arghyam
Kaula = mamsam, Dakshina = fruits, etc for naivedya
kaula = matsyam, Dakshina = naagara khandam (ginger) for tarpanas,
kaula = mudra, Dakshina = other sacred items used in patra sadhana.

Kaula = mithunam, Dakshina = no such act. only a suvasini in gross form will be worshipped.

Last one, mithuna worship in kaula is totally material in nature. It is better not to write here about the way how the pooja will be done by using mithuna in view of its secrecy and for other reasons.  

In fact there is no concept of using these makaras in order. four will be used combinely and last one will be used after navavarana puja. However, while doing navavarana puja also there is a concept of using mithuna by placing both bhairav and bhairvai on each dala/kona of that particular chakra.

Better to stop here, for me.


yogi yogi
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Re: Pancha tattvas

Thanks for the answers and links dear Guruji Ravi.
Respected Dear AUM.Ravi, I think that the subject of 5m, is secret in the fact that it does not understand all, because even if we are going to discuss it openly, who is not ready to understand, all the same, they do not understand.
As to which symbolically, at each point of Sri Yantra, You can find the Yamala of Bhairavi and Bhairava, it is normal for tantra. Almost all yantras you can see shatkonas, they are a symbol of penetration of the lingam in the yoni and etc.
avijit avijit
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Re: Pancha tattvas

In reply to this post by Pydipala



only possible maithuna in this universe.